I was reading in
your biography that your parents were hippies. Do you
think this has influenced in any way the way you approach
music in general and you work in particular?
In a sense, yes. I have no religious skeleton, hence
I believe in all or nothing, death and living. They
also followed art throughout their twenties and thirties.
However other qualities of theirs have influenced me
as well. My father is a gentle hero, and my mom is a
loving maniac, and here I stand... half today... half
them...
You seem to have a big interest in words in
general. Is that what led you to hip-hop, and what made
you decide to become a rapper?
Yes, coupled with the persona/ego projection end of
rap. Words are what makes me love or hate someone else’s
music. Words that fall easy to the lame pen turn me
off pretty fast and those who bring perfect words back
from long head-trips give me chills. I do not read however.
Novels and magazines that is. I have an extensive poetry
collection, it seems to be the way I can process writing,
refined and image heavy. Novels and their lengthy descriptions
of the many emotions or an important hallway make me
tear the flesh from my fingers in boredom...
You have quite an unconventional style of rapping
and voice. Was it easy to get recognition on the hip-hop
scene?
No. I worked quite hard for my recognition. Without
walking the try-hard fence like an outsider trying to
sneak past the guards. I’ve always worked hard
on my rapping as they say as to have a genuine confidence
in myself. Not just in the right hoodie and sunglasses…
playing the part for me has always panned out into me
being myself no matter how hard I wanted ironclad crew
or bloody knuckles. But my respect in the hip-hop circles
is subject to overall hip-hop insecurity levels. So
those rappers who respect the art and themselves see
my place and talent as undeniable, or whatever the right
word might be, but the turkeys in the back row of things
still think I’m stealing something from the temple
of hip-hop as they half listen to my songs and the grapevine
they’re in.
You are sometimes accused of being difficult
to understand. How do you react to this?
It takes time. I put time into the writing, that’s
my general response. Don’t expect my poems to
make some same similar sense that one would find on
television or in a tax return. My personal belief is
that everyone has enough of this same sense of things.
It deteriorates the blood brain barrier over time anyhow.
On the sympathetic side, I have had to unlearn writing
for myself; to write in this age is to avoid and revel
in the cliché and that has been a challenging
journey for myself. But I always push myself toward
clarity, so on earlier works, things may seem broken
in phrase or content, and hence broken in their final
sense, but such was the style of understanding myself
at that time. The further I go, the more I try to bring
back with me, I hope that five years from now, my writing
helps people mark the un-understandable in the world,
as opposed to it earning me the title of abstract rapper
with a learn to love it voice. But we shall see... I
might move into interpretive dance and botany only,
renouncing my contributions to the human concern and
generational memory...
You’re work, although very much rooted
into hip-hop, is very progressive, with very wide influences...
Yes... I would agree. Progression is all there is for
us. There has been no blinded by the light phase for
us. Where one certain work or song raked in the dough
and praise...and we stopped there and started cutting
the repro's, plus surrounding yourself with like minds
keeps you pushed and flush with processing what exactly
it is that making music is all about for one's self...
You and Jel are part of the original Anticon
‘team’. How did the whole thing start and
how did you get involved?
It started with our efforts, and lack of inclusion in
all reindeer games. It’s half and half I suppose.
It was the time of DIY record making rise, and the distributors
at large then had no place in their heads for our music.
And beyond that, the members of Anticon are all soul
mates. Meant to meet in every sense of ourselves, can't
fight gravity when it comes calling for you. Jeff and
I met through Mr. Dibbs in Cincinnati when I was in
college, and we fell in love on a dormitory porch...
The rest of the gang came together through the now extinct/then
prominent world of tape trading. The rest of the story
remains. Long and touching. However, I am only on my
first cup of coffee so that might be as far as I can
take you today!…
You have both formed Themselves and recorded
a few records together. How does your relationship within
this context compares to the one you have within Subtle?
We are a duo indeed, and in Subtle we are two members.
Our roles are no different than they ever were to the
songs we help finish. However the inclusion of four
more wonderful guys, slash music makers, allows us to
specialize and focus what we are best at, while absorbing
actual musicianship and confidence from Jordan, Alex,
Marty and Dax. Jeff and I are musically untrained and
chromatically retarded... if you didn't already know.
So Subtle is our fate and cradle indeed...
Are you two planning to work on a third Themselves
album? If yes, when can we expect to hear it?
Fuck yeah! Think we ain't... it will be a return to
the essence; raw raps and sp... we are both heavy in
its gravity, but it will take a bit of control and realignment,
so we will not be rushing it.... So 50 years from tomorrow
is the release date if not sooner....
Is it still as important today, now that you
are quite known, to be part of the collective as it
was in the early days?
Yes, it is what we chose to do, and that is my only
strength when it feels like the popular world is not
sure if it can trust me. And that is beyond important
to me. It is my spine in that sense. I could not stand
any straighter without it. In fact it is a much more
realistic and human pride I now have in my posse/collective...
when younger it was part vein part art, now it is adult
and irreplaceable… and still all part art as well.
How did Subtle start, and what was the original
idea behind the project?
We all met through working at Amoeba... four of the
six worked there at one point.... Jordan, Dax, Alex
and Marty all had played together before I met them,
and had felt gravity amongst themselves. Then Jeff and
I moved to the Bay...and I was selling records for rent
when I met Dax, who loved our four track Dr. Sample
early music, and we have been close as cousins ever
since. Then we began playing twice a week in Jordan’s
one room apartment some three years ago, and have been
dedicated to our pull ever since. We are a family with
songs out about us. Much like all my musical relationships,
it is deep running and friend based...
Subtle is formed of seven people. Is it more
difficult to create something with so many people than
with smaller formations? How do you split the work between
yourselves?
It is six actually. We do have a sound guy though, and
my cat could be the seventh member if necessary…
We are a sextet... with a capital tet. And yes it can
be gruelling, yet out the side of that gruel it has
never been so rewarding to make music and communicate
while doing so. If there is one thing we do well, it
is talk to each other about how we are feeling. Three
years of six men in a bedroom with instruments twice
a week will do that to a group. But easy is for presidents
and landlords, not working class song cutters...
Do you write differently depending on which
project you are working on?
Yes, and the Subtle writing is indeed my best... both
clear and broad in its inclusion of speaking for the
ego and sensitivity of 6. Although it may seem like
my writing is a merciless expression of one self, I
never think of it that way. It is intended to be reversible
for all those involved in the songs it strings together.
But a girl can't give away all her secrets now can she...
How did you get involved with Lex?
From back before it existed. Tom [Lex’s label
manager] and I met when the first cLOUDDEAD came out,
and have been pals ever since. He was the first person
to love a Subtle song... and became he who we would
trust with the path our music makes for us. Tom Brown
for king time and perfect person...
A New White seems to have a lot of
‘pop’ influences in the way the music flows,
while also incorporating a lot of acoustic instrumentation.
What was the inspiration for the album and how did you
work on it?
We use the term pop often when working on things, however
to us it means something like 3:33 in length, and the
inclusion of catchy portions. We seldom stick to a pop
format with respect to content or overall song structure.
But up against Merzbow or someone like that, I imagine
we are as pop as the next band. We wanted to execute
a record, a close collection of songs that were all
evidence of music we had never made before. However,
once we start making things, changes happen of their
own accord within our songs. We go through each song
and sort of ‘feelout’ what it needs to be
complete, to not confuse its coarse with too many breakdowns
or too long of an intro. Each song seems to have different
symptoms of greatness and fault as we begin shaping
them. As for instrumentation, it’s a similar Call.
The songs seem to ask for simplicity, one or two instruments
and voice, or everything at once, and we always look
to adding to songs in a manner which we have not yet
tried before.
Are you planning to tour with Subtle?
Oh yeah! We’ve already started. We launched ARM&extravaganza
in London with Fog and Notwist, and did some European
dates. And now we are off for the S.F. ARM&ex with
Mike Patton, Lesser, Zack Hella and Frog Eyes. ARM&ex
is now our homemade festival for friends and the sake
of their music. We will add two cities a year until
I am incarcerated or hit by a falling safe. And then
we do full U.S. and European tours next spring, beginning
February 15th.
You recently published The Pelt, which
collects a lot of different pieces of your work. Can
you tell us more about it, and about what made you decide
to compile it?
It has been compiling itself for 5 years. I edited it
and ushered it into record stores. A lot the writing
I do can not lend it self to being sung or rapped, and
a lot of it is a bit too personal to adopt some sing
song swagger over, so The Pelt came to be.
I plan on tending this book fire whenever it is there
for me. But like anything new, the process is slow and
somewhere between insecure and extremely rewarding…
The book came with an exclusive CD. Can you
tell us more about it?
The CD is a CD-ROM of my cat naked rolling around in
a bunch of birthday cake with a party hat on…or
it’s the content of The Pelt as I would want it
read to me. Some soundscapes, some field recordings,
bells and whistles, the works…
Do you consider music as just one form of expression
amongst others? Does this mean that you will be publishing
more books?
Yes. I hope to not ever know what exactly might change
about the ways I get to express myself…. I am
truly lucky in this regard…
When I interviewed cLOUDDEAD for themilkfactory,
Odd Nosdam seemed to want to disassociate the band with
the hip-hop scene a bit. Is it a view that you share
about your work in general, and with Subtle in particular?
Eh… I don’t think about it much. It used
to consume me at times, what is this, where does it
come from, where’s it going; but now it just is
for me. What is important is that those hearing it enjoy
it. If it poses only a menace to correct cataloging
and under-description, that’s fine by me…
You, why? Odd Nosdam announced the end of cLOUDDEAD
when you released Ten. Why stop a project that’s
got so much recognition and respect, and how did you
all make the decision?
This was the air of that era. Unfortunately when our
people factory shuts down so does the hit factory. Our
friendship was more important than records, and for
some reason the records were getting to us…
Three years ago, you recorded a whole album
with Boom Bip. Do you think you will work together again
in the future?
I think so, and hope so… Bryan is one of my favorite
people… but no plans in stone just yet…
What are your next projects?
13&god, which is me, Dax, Jel, Marcus & Micha
Acher and Console….it will be out late April.
And I am the voice of a pair of cartoon eyes that live
behind a wall in a wild woman’s house in a feature
film called The Zoo Project, which will be
out next year and is being finished this month. The
rest is cat petting time… and Subtle writing editing….
Thanks for the time!… Love Adam…
Email interview October 2004
Thank you to Adam and Ben.
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